Date Of Birth : 15 September 1951
Nation : Netherlands, Caps : 49 Games (17 Goals)
Height : 172 cm, Position : Box-To-Box Midfielder
Major Club : Ajax Amsterdam, Barcelona
World Cup Participation : 1974, 1978 (12 Games/5 Goals)
Club Honours : 3 Times Dutch League
2 Times Dutch Cup, 1 Time Copa De Rey
1979 UEFA Cup Winners’ Cup
3 Times European Cup (1971, 1972, 1973)
1972 Intercontinental Cup
International Honours :2 Times FIFA World Cup Runner-Up (74,78) Individual Achievement : 1974 FIFA World Cup All-Stars Team
1976 Best Spanish League Foreign Player
6. Falcao
Date Of Birth : 16 October 1953
Nation : Brazil, Caps : 34 Games
Height : 183 cm, Position : Box-To-Box Midfielder
Major Club : Internacional, AS Roma
World Cup Participation : 1982, 1986 (7 Games)
Club Honours : 3 Times Brazil National Champions
1 Time Italian Series A, 1984 European Cup Runner-up
International Honours : 1991 Copa America Runner-Up
Individual Achievement : 1982 FIFA World Cup Silver Ball
1979 Bronze South American Footballer Of The Year
1982 Silver Ball South American Footballer Of The Year
2 Times Brazilian League Footballer of The Year (1978, 1979)
Internacional Greatest Player Ever
Brazil Football Museum Hall of Fame
“8th King Of Rome" Falcao is the greatest central midfielders in the World in the late 1970s to 1980s. He is also one of the greatest players ever of AS Roma which he was chosen as a starter in their all-time XI by many journalists in www.channel4.com. Falcao is the most central talented midfielder of all-time. He played as a deep-lying playmaker or box-to-box midfielder. An elegant and technically gifted player with an eye for goal from midfield and ability to orchestra his team attacking's moves and is known for his flair, vision, passing and long-range shooting ability as well as his tactical intelligence, organizational ability and leadership. After winning best players award in Brazilian League twice, Falcao was rated by Guerin Sportivo in all four world-class Series A seasons and was also rated as the greatest foreign player in the 1982 - 1983 season. He was also selected in 1975 Brazilian championship best XI.
_______________________________________
5. Xavi Hernandez
Date Of Birth : 25 January 1980
Height : 170 cm, Nation : Spain, Caps :133 Games
Position : Central Holding Midfielder, Major Club : Barcelona
World Cup Participation : 2002,2006,2010,2014 (17 Games/2 Assists)
Club Honours : 7 Times Spanish La Liga, 1 Time Copa Del Rey
3 Times UEFA Champion League (2006, 2009, 2011)
2 Time FIFA Club World Cup (2009, 2012)
International Honours : 2 Times UEFA Euro (2008, 2012)
2010 FIFA World Cup Champion
Individual Achievement : 1999 La Liga Young Player Of The Year
2005 Spanish Player Of The Year, 2008 UEFA Euro Best Player
4 Times IFFHS World Best Playmaker, 2009 UEFA Club Best Midfielder
2009 Spanish National Sportsman of The Year
2009 Bronze Ball World Soccer Player of The Year
2009 Bronze Ball Ballon’ Dor, FIFA World Player of The Year
2010 FIFA World Cup All-Stars Team
2 Times Bronze Ball FIFA Ballon'Dor (2010, 2011)
2021 IFFHS All-Time World Dream Team
"A Puppet Master" Xavi Hernandez is one of the most team decorated footballers of all-time and was one of the most valuable players in history of Spanish football, was the best midfielder in the World in the very late 2000s to the beginning 2010s. He is a key man of the achievement for Barcelona and Spain that meet their golden era, has made more than 180 assists for his club. Xavi is not a style of spectacular and all-round player style but full of intelligent and effectiveness in central midfield area as an indispensable organisor with reliable ball controlling and his ability to find and exploit spaces and made very accurate short passing as an embodiment of Tiki-Taka tactical strategy, having assisted to a lot goals. Xavi won the best player of Euro 2008 tournament plus man of the match in 2009 UEFA Champion league final round. Xavi holds the record most appearances in UEFA Champion League. He was named in ESM team of the year 23 times and team of the year 3 times. Xavi was named in UEFA Team of the year five times and FIFPro World XI six times In 2008, Xavi was also voted 5th European footballer of the year. Xavi made around 180 assists in overall career.
_______________________________________
Date Of Birth : 28 November 1925
Nation : Hungary, Caps : 101 Games (11 Goals)
Position : Defensive Holding Midfielder
Height : 173 cm, Major Club : Kispest Honved
World Cup Participation : 1954, 1958 (8 Games)
Club Honours : 5 Times Hungarian League
1959 Mitropa Cup
International Honours : 1952 Olympic Game Gold Medal
1953 Central European Champion
1954 FIFA World Cup Runner-Up
Individual Achievement : 1954 FIFA World Cup All-Stars Team
1952 Hungarian Football Federation Player of the Year
“Cucu” Jozsef Bozsik is
regarded as the greatest deep-lying playmaker in history of European football
and was the best midfielder in the World during the mid-50s, was one of
World-Class players but was overshadowed by the gifted attackers “The Magic
Magyars” The Hungary Golden team. He was known for his flawless technique,
flair, tactical nous, passing accuracy in both short and long range with the
right moment, reliable ball possession with very difficult to lose the ball and
control the game with ease, although he suffered from a lack of pace. He was an
extremely intelligent player and was often used as a deep lying playmaker where
his tackling ability was also helpful. He holds the record most Caps and most
consecutive years of Caps for Hungary national team.Throughout his career,
Bozsik won many honours. Bozsik was voted 6th European footballer of the year
in the first year of this award. Besides, He was voted the third place
Hungary’s player of century by IFFHS’s poll.
_______________________________________
Date Of Birth : 30
September 1962, Height : 190 cm
Nation :
Netherlands, Caps : 73 Games (10 Goals)
Position :
Defensive Holding Midfielder
Major Club : AC
Milan, Ajax Amsterdam
World Cup Participation
: 1990, 1994 (8 Games)
Club Honours :
5 Times Eredivisie, 3 Times Dutch Cups
2 Times Italian Series A, 1987
UEFA Cup Winners Cup
3 Times European Cup (1989,
1990, 1995), 1993 Runner-Up
2 Times Intercontinental Cup
(1989, 1990)
International Honours
: 1988 European Championship Winners
Individual Achievement : 2
Times Dutch Golden Shoe (1985, 1987)
2 Times Bronze Ball European
Footballer Of The Year (1988, 1989)
1988 European Championship Team
Of Tournament
1992 Guerin Italian Series A Footballer Of The Year
Frank Rijkaard is the greatest defensive midfielder of all-time. His primitive race is
Suriname. He started his professional career as central defender but he was
transformed into a world-class holding midfielder at AC Milan and became an
indispensable player alongside his comrades like Ruud Gullit and Marco Van
Basten to build their glory year. Rijkaard basically played as man’s marker for
Netherlands national team. He is one of the strongest players ever. possessed tremendous determination and excellent
technique, both of which served him well in controlling the middle of the
field. His vision and ability to advance forward also made him a formidable
defensive force. Rijkaard was remembered of his unsuitable behavior spat in
Voller’s hair. This led him to be sent off and Holland finally lost to West
Germany. He ended his career with a luxury scene winning the first UEFA
Champion League in 1995.In spite of being a defensive player, He scored more
than 150 goals in all club competition. He also finished in top ten World Soccer Player of the year in the early 1990s twice.
_______________________________________
Date Of Birth : 8 October 1929
Nation : Brazil, Caps : 68 Games (20 Goals)
Position : Central Holding Midfielder
Height : 174 cm, Major Club : Botafogo
World Cup Participation : 1954,1958,1962 (15 Games)
Club Honours : 4 Times Campeonato
Carioca
International Honours : 2 Times FIFA World Cup
Winners (1958,1962)
3 Times Copa America Runner-Up (1953, 1957, 1959)
Individual Achievement : 1958 FIFA World Cup Golden Ball
Brazil Football Museum Hall Of Fame
"The Prince of Ethiopian"
Valdir Pereira “Didi” is considered as the greatest south american central midfielders ever and was the best midfielder in the World in the late 1950s.
He had incredibly accurate passing, ball controlling, vision, great stamina and
strength. He played as holding creative midfielder and created many of assists
to Brazil’s strikers and scored a lot of goals by his own. Didi is credited as
the inventor of the unpredictable “Dry Leaf” or “Banana” free-kick technique,
where the ball would swerve seemingly downwards at the right time resulting in
a goal. Despite his great reputation after the 1958 World Cup which his performance is considered as the best central midfielder ever of the tournament, He moved to Real Madrid and played only 19 matches
for the Spaniards and often clashed with the team leader Alfredo Di Stéfano,
who felt offended by the divide in the fan’s attention with this newcomer; this
situation precipitated his exit from the club. Didi was voted 20th World’s
player of century by IFFHS’s poll.
_______________________________________
Date Of Birth : 21 March 1961
Nation : Germany
Position : Box-To-Box
Midfielder
Height : 175 cm
Major Club : Inter Milan, Bayern Munich
Caps : 150 Games (23 Goals)
World Cup Participation : 1982, 1986, 1990,
1994, 1998 (25 Games)
Club Honours : 7 Times Bundesliga
Champions
1 Time Italian Series A
2 Times DFB-Pokal
2 Times UEFA Cup (1991, 1996)
2 Times UEFA Champion League Runner-Up (1987, 1999)
International Honours : 1990
FIFA World Cup Champion
1986 FIFA World Cup Runner-Up
Individual Achievement
1978 Bravo Award
1990 FIFA World Cup Golden Ball
1990 World Soccer
Player Of The Year
1990 IFFHS World Best Player of the Year
1991 FIFA World Player
Of The Year
European Footballer Of The Year : 1990 Gold, 1991 Silver
2 Times German
Footballer Of The Year (1990, 1999)
1988 European
Championship Team Of Tournament
“The
Superman” Lothar Matthaus is the greatest central midfielder of all-time, was a powerful dynamo midfielder, has played in five
World Cups more than any other outfield player, and holds the record for the
most World Cup appearances with 25 games. He also played in Euro for four
tournaments. He is the most capped German player of all time with 150. The
first half of his career was performed as a box-to-box midfielder. Kicker
Magazine rated him as a world-class player in World Cup 1986, 1990 and 7.5
international-class seasons as a midfielder in Bundesliga. However, He also
reaches 3 world-class years at Inter Milan where he won many big individual
awards. Aside from 1990 and 1991, He won 4th in Ballon’ Dor in 1989.
Afterwards, He moved down to play as Libero, was rated a half world-class
season and 5.5 seasons international-class, noted for his two years injury. He
was renowned for his perceptive passing, positional sense, movement, tireless,
acceleration and well-timed tackling, as well as his explosive shot. According
to German Footballer of the year voting, He also finished second place three times, is German defender of the year three times and German
midfielder of the year four times and was most appeared in Bundesliga team of the week in twice seasons in 1985 and 1994. He played in professional level for 22
seasons. Matthaus was voted 15th World’s player of century in IFFHS’s poll and
the same place in UEFA Jubilee’s poll.
_______________________________________
The Memorial
Date Of Birth : 11 October 1936
Nation : England, Caps : 18 Games
Position : Defensive Holding
Midfielder
Height : 180 cm, Major Club : Manchester United
World Cup Participation : None
Club Honours : 2 Times
English Top Division
International Honours : None
Individual Achievement :
1957 Bronze Ball European Footballer Of The Year
“Big
Dunc” Duncan Edwards is the most regrettable losing in history of football. He
was one of the victims who died as a result of the Munich air disaster when his
age was just 21 years old. Nevertheless, Edwards had gotten everything
indicating that he would go on his road to be as one of the greatest British
footballers ever and one of the greatest central midfielders of all-time. He was a
starter to play for Manchester United at his only 17 year olds of age and
already played for almost five seasons with 177 games and won twice top
division titles. Also, He was caps 18 matches for England. Moreover, He won the
third place in European footballer of the year in 1957 despite his only 20 year
olds. In abilities, Duncan Edwards was a completed and versatile midfielder, is
one of the strongest footballers the world has ever seen. As a defensive
midfielder, He could switch to play as center-back or even striker when needed.
His greatest asset is physical strength, stamina, toughness, his level of
authority on the pitch and dynamic coming forward, the power and timing of his
tackles, his ability to pass and shoot equally well with both feet, his surging
runs up the pitch and was equally skilled at heading the ball and at striking
fierce long-range shots.
_______________________________________
Statistics
By Nations/ Continent
Germany : 6
Brazil : 6
Netherlands : 5
England : 4
Argentina : 4
Austria : 4
Scotland : 4
Spain : 3
France : 2
Soviet Union : 2
Ireland 2
Uruguay : 1
Italy : 1
Yugoslavia : 1
Northern Ireland 1
Portugal : 1
Belgium : 1
Hungary : 1
Croatia : 1
Czechoslovakia : 1
Africa : 1
By Decade
1920s : 2
1930s : 2
1940s : 3
1950s : 11
1960s : 7.5
1970s : 8
1980s : 6
1990s : 5.5
2000s : 6
2010s : 1.5
By Position
Box-To-Box Midfielder : 18
Central Holding Midfielder :14
Defensive Holding Midfileder : 13
Destroyer : 4
Wing-Half : 2
____________________________________
CLASSIFICATION
Class : Crown
None
|
Class : King
|
Gold
None
|
Silver
None
|
Bronze
Lothar Matthaus
|
Class : Queen
|
Gold
Didi, Frank Rijkaard,
Joszef Boszik, Falcao,
Luis
Monti, Josef Masopust,
Ernest Ocwirk, Paul Breitner
Xavi Hernandez, Luca Modric
|
Silver
Willem Van Hanegem,
Obdilio Varela, Steven Gerrard,
Johan Neeskens, Gerhard Hanappi,
Danny Blanchflower, Gerson
Jose Pirri, Fernando Redondo
Fritz Szepan, Mario Coluna,
Igor Netto,
Jean Tigana, Marco Tardelli,
Bryan Robson, Patrice Vieira,
Osvaldo Ardiles,
Frank Lampard, Luca Modric, Nestor Rossi
|
Bronze
Graeme Souness, Billy Bremner
Toninho Cerezo, ,
Karel Pesek Kada, Josef Smistik
Herbert Prohaska, Johnny Giles, Stefan Effenberg, Jim Baxter,
Zlatko Cajkovski,
Michael Ballack, Danilo Alvim,,
Dave Mackay, Valery Voronin,
Roy Keane, Zito, Edgar Davids
Horst Szymaniak,
Clarence Seedorf, Xabi Alonso
|
Substitution Group : First Class
Dino Sani : Brazil/50s
Walter Mausch : Austria/30s
Fulvio Bernardini : Italy/Late 20s to Early 30s
Uli Stielike : Germany/late 70s to Early 80s
Paul Pogba : France/2010s
Bauer : Brazil/Late 40s to Early 50s
Puck Van Heel : Holland/30s
____________________________________
Zito has been newly added in 41th.
ReplyDeleteReally interesting read, but I can only see the skills ratings for 33-21. Would be great if you could put them back up for the rest of the players.
DeleteIt was completely provided but I have removed because those skill rating is too inaccurate and I am doing the skill evaluation project in another thread. Thanks for interesting.
DeleteDid I miss Pirlo in this list or...is he just not good enough?
DeleteMy coach calls me pirlo and I am also shocked he is not there
DeleteCan you please, for the name of God, care to explain how can Steven Gerrard be so low placed, and especially how can he be lower than Bryan Robson??
ReplyDeletePreviously, I name Gerrard superior to Robson primarily for his big advantage in international club. But still, when I give some special point to legend much impact on history of his team, in negative way it would deduct point as Gerrard’s mistake in previous season is largely influenced to Liverpool’s missing champion of premier league and once again he mistook in World Cup. Robson played the game with more accuracy even not played in lower speed and not as spectacular as Gerrard who is seen to more often in ineffective passing although Gerrard’s peak is considered as a slight better.
DeleteAlright, Gerrard's mistake in last season could have happened to anyone, it's not like he made a wrong pass, or was dispossessed when he tried to dribble someone. He just slipped, he couldn't have done anything about it. And you said that he made a mistake in world cup. I have to emphasize this: IT WAS NOT HIS MISTAKE, how many times players battle in the air like that and someone headers the ball and it goes backwards, probably 5-10 times in every game, but the defense let Suarez get the ball, they were all poorly positioned and just let him take the ball and score. It wasn't Gerrard's mistake!
DeleteWhy wasn’t his mistake with England when he headed the ball in unexpected direction resulted from indivisible relation between his position, jumping and heading. For Liverpool, that scene is rare for such a legend to make a big mistake and it was caused by his mistook decision, unfortunately that is very important match and very effect to lose champion.
DeleteYes, he did head the ball in unexpected direction, but that happens in every game multiple times, but it doesn't result in receiving a goal because defense is there to clean it up. And in that game against Chelsea, well it was just bad luck, he slipped, and that's it, it did cost a lot, but me, as a Liverpool fan I don't hold it against him, nor does any real Liverpool fan.
DeleteYes, Great spirit of Liverpool supporter. I'm not liverpool fan but really expect them to win the trophy but finally disappointing.
DeleteI just think that Robson is in no way better than Gerrard. Just look at how adaptable Steve G has been first central mid, than attacking mid who controled the attack and always presented a threat for opposition by long range shooting and heading when he runs in the box, and in last season and in this season defensive mid who starts the attack who is always there to help center backs (i think that he does more defensive work than Liverpool's CB's), he can do everything and in his whole career he has been a leader who made sure that Liverpool doesn't touch rock bottom. Player of the match in Champions league finals and fa cup finals, best player of champions league in 2005 and one on 3 or for best players in the world at that time. Premier league player of the season in 2009, UEFA euro team of the tournament in 2012, 3 times liverpool top scorer (from midfield!) 3 times Uefa team of the year 3 times FIFA team of the year, and 8 times Premier league team of the season (record), robson was 6 times in team of the season in English league. I have HUGE RESPECT for your work and think that you are one of the best experts on the internet (probably THE BEST) but this absurdly low ranking of Gerrard throws a big stain on your work. I hope that you will consider my suggestions. Best wishes from Serbia. I didn't mention that my favorite club from my country is Crvena Zvezda, I saw that you are their fan too.
DeleteI am wondering why Andrea Pirlo has not made this list
DeleteHe did play as CM in similar to Valderrama style which I also not include them in the list because they are just great in offensive quality while CM definition in this list required players to qualify in defensive and strength/stamina ability. Pirlo is named in AM list.
DeleteLeague titles won?
Deletewhere the hell is Paul Scholes
ReplyDeleteHe is considered as AM not CM. Scholes even performed as forward in his early career and then he switched to AM as primary role although occasionally just base on central midfield area with a good quality of defensive function.
DeleteAlso he is very closed to top 50 AM in my list when I consider his technique is much lower than average of legendary range. He is also rated in world-class in one domestic season (Premier League). Scholes has no highlight in NT career even he totally performed well in his standard. I understand Glenn Hoddle is generally rated ahead of Scholes by English ? and Hoddle is just 50th.
No. Paul Scholes is widely regarded as the best central midfielder of his generation; see endorsements from the likes of Alex Ferguson, Pep Guardiola, Xavi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Marcelo Lippi, Bobby Charlton, Zinedine Zidane, Roy Keane (type in 'Paul Scholes quotes' and see what you find. Paul Scholes's passing, vision, and shooting is undoubtedly among the best of his generation. Glenn Hoddle was a fraction of the player Scholes was.
DeleteAlso worth noting that Scholes was played out of position (left wing) for the majority of his career with England.
DeleteI agree Scholes is more consistent and successful than Hoddle. It is always not easy to make a divisible result of comparison as Hoddle is also much more talent than Scholes. However, not only Ballon'Dor voting where Scholes was never finished in any top 20 but media rating also shows him rather low point (Best at 2002 - 2003 season).
DeleteHoddle had more talent than Scholes? Seriously? Hoddle played further forward for most of his career, so he used his talent differently to Scholes, but until the likes of Xavi and Pirlo were used correctly, no one controlled a game in midfield like Paul Scholes. His football brain was second to none, and its genuinely not exaggerating that United wouldn't have won the treble in 1999 without him.
DeleteJust to put an exclamation mark on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXLAz3ixoLU
I have made an issue for this comparison in bigsoccer with a full version of support detailed and information. http://forums.bigsoccer.com/threads/glenn-hoddle-vs-paul-scholes.2013446/
DeleteNot mean I’ll apply the vote result to my ranking but it would be helpful if any expertise came into the comment. Anyway, even Hoddle is selected out, I’m not sure Scholes is more deserved to come in than Veron.
Expertise? Are there any better experts than past players and coaches that have worked at the highest level? Just saying.
DeleteHonesty the past professional footballers or coaches are closed to the real event and they would have a great sight of players’ playing skill. But all-time performance is another story which people must take studying with complying data and have a great analysis in comparison between a large number of players, is surely not a jobs for players/managers. As the easiest example, Pele’s top 100 living footballers list is one of the most criticized lists as he omitted so many greater legends.
DeleteDear readers
ReplyDeleteAs there are some well-matched players between central midfielder and offensive midfielder such as Didi, Gerson, Lampard, etc, they are considered to be sightly more similar to other players in this list (Matthaus in example) than AM list which includes many advanced AM likes Maradona, Zico, Gullit, Zizinho, etc. In case of Lampard, he is not considered a natural pure AM when he is based on central area before go advance and his strength and stamina is high enough and his technique is also low enough to be categorized as CM.
Did you just say Lampard has low technique?
DeletePeople who saw Fernanado Redondo play at his best during the late 1990s will say 19th place is just a ridiculously harsh ranking. Arguably the best I've ever seen in that position
ReplyDeleteI’ve never refused Redondo is one of the best prime central midfielders and honesty he is my favorite player of all-time. Unfortunately, his international career is a big absence due to his hair style. In my opinion, it should be a minor thing of player to consent cutting his hair because the career is more important and this list is rated base on how much players have contributed to his club and national team.
DeleteThe list is very good, and you deserve congratulations for compiling the information that you have. However, your rankings are flawed, and this is basically down to a definition problem. Your restriction of central midfielders based on their defensive capabilities discounts one of the most important and influential central midfield roles: the deep lying playmaker. Only rarely involved in the defensive side of the game, the deep lying playmaker is the deepest midfielder and provides creativity when more offensive players are closed down higher up the pitch. They are very difficult to pick up, have an excellent passing range, and what they lack in actual tackling skill, they make up for in high quality positional play, blocking off angles for passes, intercepting and generally reading the game well. Sometimes they are played higher up the pitch and focused on retaining possesion and dictating the pace of the game. I have already discussed with you how Xavi played this role for Spain in 2010 (the Spain entry of your International Legendary Museum). These players often have even higher contributions to their side's success than more defensive holding midfielders, and rather than be penalised for their supposed lack of defensive skill, they should be rewarded for moving beyond the parameters of their position and providing a higher level of contribution to their team.
ReplyDeleteNot including this criteria as part of your central midfield discussion has caused you to dramatically underrate some of the players on this list, and miscategorise others. In my next post, I will provide a short list of players I believe you should revisit based on their role as deep-lying playmakers, along with my reasons.
Xavi - was played further up the pitch later in his career for tactical reasons, but is essentially a deep lying playmaker with an excellent passing range, and an uncanny ability to find and block off space. In this manner, he was actually quite good at defending, and certainly contributed more to his domestic and international sides than the likes of Ernst Ocwirk, Josef Masopust, or Jose Leonardo Andrade
ReplyDeleteWilliem Van Hangem - was known for being notoriously slow, and as such your classification as a 'box to box midfielder' makes no sense. He did however, have excellent passing ability and highly intelligent positional play. Like Xavi, should not be punished for his lack of defensive capabilities.
Mario Coluna - the true inspiration behind Benfica's success in the 60's. While your classification of him as a box to box midfielder is a fair one, the only thing that really differentiates him from a deep-lying playmaker is his work rate; aside from that, he was a pure creator. His job in that side was not to defend, and he should be rated based on his influence on the success of the sides he played in, rather than his ability to satisfy particular positional criteria.
Didi - I actually agree with his ranking, but based on your definition of a central midfielder, he should actually be lower, because he wasn't much of a defensive player. He was however excellent at bringing the ball out of defence, had excellent vision and passing ability, and was able to dictate the pace of the game from deep in central midfield. Ranking him this well, but the others as poorly as you have doesn't make sense.
There are other players in your Offensive Midfielder category that were in essence deep lying playmakers: Giancarlo Antognoni, Andrea Pirlo, and even Nils Leidholm (although he also played further up the pitch).
I understand that central midfield is an obscure area and there are many different types of players, but that only makes it all the more imperative that you don't devalue certain midfield roles. If you insist on dividing 'Central Midfielder' and 'Offensive Midfielder' categories based on their relative contribution to either defence or attack, then I suggest that you incorporate the players I have listed above in that list rather than this one, as none of them were required to play as defenders. If you wish to keep those players in this list, then I suggest you include a new midfield classification, the deep-lying playmaker, and reevaluate their ratings based on their contribution to that midfield role, taking into account their tactical awareness, and in particular, their ability to prevent attacking moves by blocking off space and preventing angles for passes.
Please note that I say all this with the greatest respect. I am a big fan of your work and want it to be as complete as possible, so please interpret this as a desire to help you present the most accurate representation of players abilities.
Certainly this list is the most difficult to categorize and let to the most debatable as a mixture of offensive and defensive player. So, that’s always a good occasion to discuss more.
DeleteDeep-lying playmaker or central holding midfielder who has a primary role in linking the game between functional lines and so do offensive midfielder who several times need to apply position deeper in the situation against condensed-defensive tactic. If notice, great player in Xavi style in history has been produced much less than other styles of player and I think it is stem from being unpreferable by many coaches for the limitation of role. In example, Ademir Da Guia who has a similar style to Xavi, was ignored by Zagallo and finally won only 9 caps. I'm not expect that central midfielder need to possess a great tackling or uncompromising attitude to win the ball and if not, I believe Barcelona or Spain have fulfilled Xavi’s potential because they have a prolific scorer in the front line so that is helpful as Xavi and even Iniesta supported the team to make scores in very few number in ratio. I’d expect Xavi to have been a better contributor in more advanced role when Barcelona or Spain was under pressure situation against ultra-defense and had a difficult time to find a gold opportunity to score an important goal. Thereby I would disagree that Xavi is more contribute to his team than Ocwirk, Andrade, etc because he is more dependent to specific tactical strategy, he need a destroyer behind him and need creative forward in front of him at the same time to fulfill his potential. Ocwirk could play in any team or tactic because he is more multi-functional player.
In central midfielder categorization, some players have a both role of playmaking and box-to-box. I saw Van Hanegem played deeper for Holland in the first half 1970s and left Neeskens to go more advanced position as a box-to-box. Anyway, Van Hanegem have a more advanced centralized role in Feyernoord and more productive of scores. Probably I should have specified both position for Van Hanegem, Coluna, etc
Didi is one of the least close to central midfielder position in this list but when player has been categorized in any list, they will be equal in comparison by no advantage/disadvantage of being fit to the position because I’m purpose to rank player base on the complete functional performance would be more fair.
You raise some good counterpoints here. I suppose this is as much a discussion about football philosophy as anything: you think that great players should be able to fit into any system, while I believe that the best players should have systems built around them. Its true that the role of deep-lying playmaker has been under-appreciated at different points in the evolution of football tactics. But that just emphasises the fact that players who encouraged coaches to play with a deep-lying playmaker (like Xavi or Pirlo) should be rewarded for that. Xavi, and his style of play, has actually changed the way football is played in the modern age, with most clubs now striving to include a deep-lying playmaker in their team.
DeleteYou raise the example of Ademir Da Guia, a good example of this kind of player being overlooked by a coach. I never saw him play, but I would argue that he was left out not because he wasn't good enough, but because Brazil already had a better player in that role (Gerson).
One more word about Xavi, though I know you're probably sick of hearing from me. You've mentioned the limitations of the deep-lying playmaker role, with two things in particular; goal scoring ability and defensive ability. To that I would make two counter arguments. Firstly, defensive midfielders, who usually play as deep as deep-lying playmakers, are not expected to score goals, so there's no reason to expect the latter to. And one of the biggest reasons deep-lying playmakers are under appreciated is because they are misunderstood. Xavi was actually an excellent defensive player, because he was tactically intelligent. He rarely had to make a tackle, but his positioning meant that a lot of passes got blocked off before they were even made. Isn't that the kind of defending that made the likes of Gaetano Scirea such great players?
Gerson is different style from Ademir Da Guia. He had an extraordinary defensive quality and he is definitely greater in advanced role as he played as AM in club career. That’s why he is preferable by coach. However, between 1965 and 1972 which is an overlapped period of international appearance between Gerson and Ademir Da Guia, there are 89 official A matches, Gerson participated 60 games and Ademir won only 9 games from total 39 games left. Zagallo even give his personal preference to Dirceu Lopes (7 Caps) and sometimes used Piazza as Central Midfielder.
DeleteI actually understand your point in the first argument but I just add another view of limitation as Xavi is generally known as a more offensive than defensive style of player (His creativity, passing and ball controlling is much better than his defensive quality). Certainly Xavi is not too bad in defensive task (at least better than Pirlo and Veron) but is still below average among all-time greatest central midfielders. Scirea’s sweeping style is very effective within area of defense and it should be much negatively different in application to midfield area where central midfielder need a heavier task and would be more expected in winning the ball when consider that number and quality of defensive performers per area of midfield zone is less than the area of defense. Iniesta who is more advanced midfielder even have made a better contribution in defensive task.
How is Duncan Edwards 18th in 10x100 best defensive and box to box mids and here just an honorable mention?
ReplyDeleteOK, I may overrate him but he is obtained greatness bonus in term of historical value. Now I name him at 35th.
DeleteAre you sure that Gerson should be box to box and not central holding?
ReplyDeleteHe is more deep-lying midfielder in NT games and get more advanced role in club career. I agree at least central holding midfielder should be added.
DeleteNo Duncan Edwards in top 10 peaks?
ReplyDeleteNow I'd prefer name Edwards in replacement of Redondo.
DeleteAndreas Möller?
ReplyDeleteAdemir da Guia, despite being very good in his day had players of his best and fastest position for that reason was called a few times.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you mean by Falcao being the most talented midfielder of all time? More talented than Maradona?
ReplyDeleteThat is an incomplete sentence. I intend to mean the most talented central midfielders ever.
DeleteObdulio Varela has to be in front of Gerson according to the Evaluation Result.
ReplyDeleteThe secondary condition has been changed from basic score to peak performance.
DeleteI understand, but in your Evaluation Result, Varela has 78.1 final score and Gerson has 77.5 final score.
DeleteWhat do you think about Makelele? Where would he rank in this list, since his international career isn't great, his club career is great, and he's considered one of the best destroyers and defensive midfielders ever? I usually don't favor modern players, but I feel Makelele deserves a place in this list...
ReplyDeleteMakelele is too limited in offensive function as one of midfielders. I understand how big importance of his role on his team but he is surely disadvantageous in comparison to other all-round central midfielders. Note that there are many defensive midfielders who has a greater offensive quality than Makelele likes Ocwirk, Redondo or even Roy Keane.
DeleteYes, that's the reasoning that I thought would be used, and of course you're entirely correct, a bit too one-sided. I typically don't show bias, but as a DM myself that molds his style of play to Makelele's, I just can't help myself. Thanks for responding!
DeleteLooool! You just forgot the best deep lying midfielder EVER, Andrea Pirlo! How the hell you can put Mattheus number 1 and forget Pirlo!
ReplyDeleteHis best position is based on central midfield area but he played more advanced role several times through his career and he is also lack of enough defensive quality so he is named in AM list not CM.
DeleteMatthaus is a much better player than Pirlo was, hope you aren't saying otherwise
DeleteHow in the hell is Gerrard 15? He is the most complete midfielder of them all. He played everywhere in midfield to a player of the year standard. He's a better version of Mathaus, who inherited a shitter club/country and hence didn't win as much. Ability-wise he has everything.
ReplyDeleteWhere is Didier Deschamps?
ReplyDeleteDeschamps was a strong and very reliable player, rarely made the mistakes but his style of play is too smooth.
DeletePirlo is definitely a classic Central Midfielder, he goes box to box, that makes him qualify, he grabs the ball behind mid field most of the time.
ReplyDeleteThis topic has long been debatable. The criteria is not considered only position but also style of play . I see Pirlo is more similar style to playmakers than central midfielder as his role is extremely a creative force and his position is intersected between CM and AM. In the early and the middle career (Around 2007 – 2009), he played as AM.
DeleteDavids has to be Queen Bronze class and you have omitted the class of Seedorf.
ReplyDeleteXavi should be top of the list. he is greatest central midfielder ever,
ReplyDeletehe redefined the classic role of central midfiled play.
he is the main contributor of barca sixtuple in 2009 and quintuple
in 2011 and spains eruo wins in 2008, 2012 and world cup 2010.
I think he is perfect as a creative role but not all-round enough in overall ability. I mean he is limited to play for specific strategy which allow him to much independent from box-to-box role. I don't think he could play in 4-4-2 system effective enough.
DeleteThe trophies won by many great Spanish players. Xavi is a centralized role is true but let not overrate the fortune of the teammate factor.
Hi Dearman,
ReplyDeleteAfter I cross-checked your database, I found something inconsistent in this section.
In section "World's All-Time Greatest Footballers", Breitner, Ocwirk, Monti, Masopust, Andrade, Neesken, Gerrard, Hanappi, Hanegem, Gerson placed 57th, 60th, 67th, 69th, 73rd, 74th, 76th, 79th, 80th, 81st, 99th; however, in this section, their places are 7th, 6th, 8th, 11th, 10th, 9th, 12th, 15th, 14th, 13th, 16th.
Hope this help you to review & adjust. Best regards,
Hi Dearman,
ReplyDeleteAfter I cross-checked your database, I found something inconsistent in this section.
In this section, Sastre placed 22nd (behind Netzer & Overath); however, in section "World's All-Time Greatest Footballers", Sastre placed 96th whilst Netzer & Overath are out the list.
Hope this help you to review & adjust. Best regards,
Thanks for checking but let understand criteria between World All-Time Greatest Footballer and Positional Hall of Game is the same. As WAGF is the more competitive group, congregating by all positions, the higher level of competition likes International country is given more proportion. For PHF, it is more flexible for players who was limited in international opportunity. The case of Messi ad Di Stefano is the best example.
DeleteI am not aware that Matthaus won the "trophies bravo"
ReplyDeleteWhat a flaw. Good information, bad ranking. Paul Scholes should be there. Top 5. Yes. He's a midfielder who score goals and he had never played as a striker. He's a pure midfield player. You missed Zidane too.
ReplyDeleteYou should aware this is one of seven positions and Zidane and Scholes are belonged to AM list. However, Scholes is not included in top 50. For reason, please reversely search the previous comments. I'd not repeat it several times.
DeleteNo Makelele?
ReplyDelete"Regarded as one of the greatest ever players in his position, Makélélé has been credited with redefining the defensive midfield role in English football, especially during the 2004–05 FA Premier League season, where he played a key role in helping Chelsea win the title with 95 points. In homage to Makélélé, many fans and pundits alike have dubbed the defensive midfield position as the "Makélélé Role." - From wikipedia
How can such a monumental player not even make the top 50? This is outrageous.
If individual regocnition is what makes you underrate so much Claude , you must understand that he played a very quiet role in a team full of marketing atacking monsters , so he is obviously overlooked.
McManaman - “I think Claude has this kind of gift – he's been the best player in the team for years but people just don't notice him, don't notice what he does. But you ask anyone at Real Madrid during the years we were talking about and they will tell you he was the best player at Real. We all knew, the players all knew he was the most important. The loss of Makélelé was the beginning of the end for Los Galacticos… You can see that it was also the beginning of a new dawn for Chelsea. He was the base, the key and I think he is the same to Chelsea now.”
Makelele is a must in such a list and should be in the front places.
Makelele is easily a debatable issue. He is generally considered a one of the best destroyers ever with ability to win the ball that even came to his possession. But the central midfield requires some offensive ability and he failed to compete with a ton of legendary DMs. Moreover, his prime was succeed a bit too late when he moved to Real Madrid and became the starter at his 28 years old.
Delete"although he was also highly regarded throughout his career for being capable of functioning as a deep-lying playmaker for his team, due to his ability to dictate the tempo of his team's play in midfield with his short, efficient passing game, which allowed him to link up the defence with the attack effectively after winning back possession." - from his wikipedia
DeleteI hope you aren't following Floro Perez' ugly words...
Roy Kean was about as good a passer as Makelele and was a destroyer aswell , but even tough Makelele came after him , he is still said to revolutionise the defensive midfield role.
I am telling you , such a list without Makelele is wrong. Otherwise it's looks overall like a great list.
Roy Keane is a good organizer and several times he performed as box-to-box midfielder, moving to offensive midfield area and made some great long shots. Makelele just stay on his defensive line with an easy short-pass to his teammates in very closed distance.
DeleteYou should rely less on words thrown out of anger by Floro Perez for the huge mistake he made by selling Makelele and listen to opinions of great football minds.
Delete"I have a fantastic watch. It is run by battery. Claude is my new battery. Claude is very important for the future of Chelsea. Claude was one of the first players on my list. He is a playmaker. The best." - Claudio Ranieri
"Makélelé is more than a mere defensive midfielder, but is actually Chelsea’s deep-lying playmaker, and Chelsea’s attacks are all channelled through him" - Chris Coleman
‘’Why put another layer of gold paint on the Bentley when you are losing the entire engine?’’ - Zidane on Makelele's departure
I'm not saying he was a world class passer or that he was better than players from the ranking at playmaking , but thanks to Claude , interceptions and positional awareness are a lot more valued in football now. He's the only player ever to have a role named after him.
And as a paranthese , he was already a remarkable player since his Celta days but players in modern game from small teams don't recieve as many praise as in the past.
I think the large majority of people would agree that he is a must in such a list and that is all. I hope you ultimately decide to include him in the ranking because this is a valuable list.
I'll reply you tomorrow again. Please just wait.
DeleteI would repeat explaining the value of CM. Multifunctional skill is extremely required to support the team situation. If you have a perfect destroyer when the team’s opponent made ultra-defensive strategy, they would contribute a little.
DeleteThose mentions defining him as a deep-lying playmaker is depend on their own satisfaction to a destroyer role. I’m not define him as a deep-lying playmaker since his playmaking skill is little and it is unimaginable that he could play in 4-4-2 system with another destroyer behind him. His ball possession is just move his body back to shield the ball and pass back to defenders for the most scenes. He rarely made a long pass and also forget about his long shot.
He is also lack of individual achievement. He was never chosen in PFA team of the year and I think because the rater’s view considered his limitation of playing style. Completely disappearing in UFEA team of the Year and FIFpro World XI, ESM tam of the year and World Cup all-stars team. He was nominated in Ballon’Dor just one time. He also had a short prime as aforementioned.
He was actually nominated for the Ballon d'Or 4 times(2002,2003,2005,2006). And he didn't disappear from the FIFA team of the year. He did appear in the inaugural selection in 2005. But again I say , his individual recognition is false as great football minds said. He was clouded by spectacular football stars within his own team(stars wich incidentally all agreed that he was the best player).
DeleteAlso his prime wasn't short at all , for those who saw him play.
When Budzynski first scouted the young Makelele , he was sure he had found the new Petit. And he became an integral part of the great Nantes generation , when they won the title and next season the reached the UCL semis. When he left Nantes for Marseille , the team fell apart.
Also at Celta he was remarkable and was already creating the Makelele role , but as I said , players in modern era playing for small clubs recieve little recognition. Celta would not want to sell him even to Real Madrid as they knew he was the key player but he said he wouldn't train anymore unless he was sold.
And it was the same whereever he played , Real Madrid , Chelsea... Whether popularity awards like UEFA All star teams included him or not , Makelele was a genius.
Sorry for my omission due to time constraint. Anyway, My intention is that he got a vote in Ballon’Dor once time (I forget the later era some nominators are not receive a vote unlikes the previous era. I did overlook his 2005 FIFPro world XI anyway.
DeleteIt is depend on how you stipulate the prime but his years at Real Madrid and Chelsea brought him to be starter of France national team. With Celta, he was not even picked up to the 1998 World Cup and Euro 2000.
As I checked his rating in dbscalcio, although I would not apply the rating into my own system directly, I see his rating between seasons make sense when he get highest point in 2005 conforming with his FIFPro award and Ballon’Dor ranking but the rest of seasons at Chelsea clearly get the lower rating. I would imply he achieve World-Class performance in only domestic season at Chelsea. His rating at 2004 is very low conforming to his disappearance in Ballon’Dor nomination.
His NT career is also very limited when France failed in 2002 and 2004 tournaments. He had an only one great tournament of 2006. Importantly, he disappeared in NT games for a year between 2004 and 2005 due to the interval of returning from retirement. So his point of World Cup qualification is almost zero.
Thanks for letting me know about all these people who had a lot of contribution in the field of sports. They are real human resources as they had a part in entertaining and achieving awards on behalf of nations. Recent matches can let you know about the upcoming sports star that you are supposed to know about if you are a real sports fan. You can also go for the latest sports news to know more about all these sports.
ReplyDeleteAnother player who is a must in such a list and conforms more with your criteria is Xabi Alonso. Look at his description:
ReplyDelete"A complete, consistent, hardworking and versatile midfielder, Alonso is regarded as one of the best players of his generation, and is effective both creatively and defensively. Gifted with good technique, excellent vision, and varied passing range, he excels in the deep-lying playmaking role, where he can best use his accurate long passing ability to create goal scoring chances for team-mates; he also possesses a powerful and accurate shot from distance, and he is an effective set-piece and penalty kick taker. Due to his height, positioning, and physical characteristics, Xabi Alonso is also effective in the air, often contributing with headed goals from set pieces when advancing into more offensive positions. In addition to his creative attributes, he is also capable of excelling as a defensive midfielder due to his strength and powerful physique, combined with his tenacity, tactical intelligence, aggressive tackling and his ability to read the game. He has at times been criticised, however, for occasionally committing rash challenges, and for his tendency to lose his composure and pick up unnecessary cards for particularly hard fouls"
He has been a phenomenal player everywere he has played , in every club , league and even NT level , and they were the toughest leagues on the planet.
-Legend for Sociedad , being named best Spanish Player of the Year above the likes of Raul,Xavi,Casillas etc.
-Legend at Liverpool , winning a UEFA Champions League and reaching another Final and he was their most instrumental player in this period apart from Gerrard.
-Phenomenal at Real Madrid , was rated several times as the best player in the world in his position , and added another UCL.
-Always a monster at Spain , being an integral part of EURO and World Cup winning teams
-And now he is also breaking records at Bayern with his abnormal passing.
He should be very high up on the list.
I'll reply you tomorrow.
DeleteIn the last year, I found he is disqualified for top 50 due to his injury interruption but now he has collected enough as I review rating of him by seasons and tournaments. At least he is better than Stielike for sure. Please give me a time. It should be finished within the end of this week. Thanks for important notification.
DeleteFor what it's worth , I'd eliminate Cajkovski. Stielike has a far better trophy cabinet and being named 4 times Spanish Foreign Player of The Year is a great achievement.
DeleteAs I see in the somments , separing players in this category is a tahnkless task , and you have done a great job to all of them but the one that is certain deserving for this list is Pirlo.
ReplyDeleteYou have ranked him in the offensive midfielder list , where it was made clear trought history that he didn't fit there and was far better here.
"Tactically, Pirlo is capable of playing in several midfield positions, but is usually deployed by his club and national sides as a central midfielder, in the role of a deep-lying playmaker, due to his vision and passing accuracy. He started his career in a more advanced role, as an offensive midfielder, and also played as a supporting striker on occasion.[221] Although he was considered a talented young prospect, even drawing comparisons with former Italian footballer Gianni Rivera, Pirlo occasionally struggled in this role, due to his lack of pace, and competition from other talented and more dynamic players in his position.
Because of this, he was later moved to a deep-lying playmaker role by his coaches Mazzone, Fatih Terim, and Ancelotti, where he was able to excel due to his unique capabilities. This position best utilises Pirlo's attributes, and allows him to operate creatively from a deeper position, in or even behind the main midfield line, in a seemingly defensive midfield role, where he is allowed more time on the ball to create scoring opportunities with long balls"
It is very specific where Pirlo can play and where he struggles.
I understand AM is not his best position but he spent several seasons as this role and the frequency of playing is one of the important factors in categorization. As aforementioned, his CM characteristic is still not completely categorized as a CM when his defensive quality is relatively low. When player based on central midfield area and specialize his playmaking role with very low contribution on defence, they're basically a more offensive player by their role even the position is deep enough and fit to CM requirement.
DeleteI know his offensive qualities are better than his offensive ones but this true for most of the players here aswell. The frequency of him playing an offensive role was in his early career and was a big mistake as it was shown latter.
ReplyDeletePirlo also played even deeped than CM. He has played as a DM at Juventus , similar to Xabi Alosno. A defensive midfielder who would send long diagonals as a deep lying playmaker. He has played as the deepest player above the defenders line with Pogba , Vidal and Marchisio in front of him so you can think about that as a counter balance.
If anything , Frank Lampard has played a more offensive role in overall career and has been as good/bad in defensive qualities , so putting Pirlo as offensive and Lampard as Central doesn't make sense.
Lampard performed in a more advance role but the gap between his defensive and offensive ability is much narrower than that of Pirlo. He was much stronger and his ability to tackle the ball is easily qualified. Lampard also played as CM in his first 6 seasons. His peak is a more AM but his style of play is not a natural AM when his ball controlling is limited and much depend on his teammates to support the creative approach because he couldn't possess the ball long enough. I think this style is similar to Box-to-Box midfielder who also go advanced role similar to what Bryan Robson, Gerson, etc did.
DeleteAnother issue, when manager put playmaker in deep position due to tactical reason and that player still much more contribute in offensive game than defensive game.
I don't really see any clear superiority of Lampard above Pirlo in defensive game but maybe I'm wrong. He just never was good at defending , at all , and Gerrard also seemed more offensive oriented than Pirlo. I see Pirlo identical in role to Xabi Alonso apart from the fact that managers have misused Pirlo in early career while Alonso was used corectly from the start(this only speaking about their roles , not about qualities) , fact that in my opinion you should ignore because it was simply a tactical error that did nothing but postpone Pirlo's blooming as one of the world's best players.
DeletePirlo defensive work rate is amazingly low for a player positionned so deep in the midfield that's why he needs one or several "bodyguards" such as Gattuso, Vidal...
DeleteOn the contrary, X.Alonso is much better from a defensive point of view and doesn't need anyone else to fullfill his defensive role.
On the other hand, categories mixes position and role because Pirlo is playing deep-lying midfielder which is the same position than Makelele but each one has a different role.
From a positionnal point of view I would have divided the midfield in three parts.
Deep-Lying midfielders : Pirlo, X.Alonso, Makelele...
Central-midfielder : Xavi, Kroos, Lampard, Gerrard, vidal ...
Advanced-midfielder : Zidane, Riquelme...
Based on different position Pirlo, X.Alonso, Xavi, Kroos, Zidane are playmakers... Gerrard, A.Vidal are box to box midfielder...
So "central-midfielder" name can be confusing for this category but it's always difficult to classify players especially when they played at several positions with several roles.
In a conclusion Pirlo is a playmaker playing at a deep-lying midfielder position with limited defensive work rate and abilities.
Pirlo's position is deep-lying midfielder.
DeletePirlo's role is playmaker.
Pirlo has limited defensive work-rate and abilities contrary to X.Alonso or Lampard. That's why he is often associated with "bodyguards" such as Gattuso, Vidal...
Considering this we can say pirlo's main role is offensive and classify him with offensive midfielders.
In my opinion the confusion is about the name of the ranking "Central-midfielder" that mixes role and position.
How far till Luka Modric will enter the ranking? All the ex yugo football fans I've spoke say he's a must in the all time XI. Clearly above Cajkovski.
ReplyDeleteNo offence but this list is a bit laughable and full of controversy. Tho I thank it for including lesser-known players but nonetheless deserving of a spot.
ReplyDeleteThe above list is complete nonsense. Players like Didi, Bobby Charlton, Duncan Edwards and Redondo were the original masters of the position. Players like Rijkaard and Matteus revolutionized how the central midfield position is played. Viera and Keane came along and revolutionized things even further. And then the likes of Xavi, Busquests and Pirlo revolutionized things even further. So I think this list below is a far more accurate list than the nonsense above
ReplyDelete23. Edgar Davids
22. Deschamps
21. Schweinsteiger
20. De Rossi
19. Yaya Toure
18. Sounness
17. Bobby Charlton
16. Dunga
16. Gattuso
15. Toni Kroos
14. Xabi Alonso
13. Scholes
12. Bryan Robson
11. Ballack
10. Patrick Viera
9. Steven Gerrard
8. Clarence Seedorf
7. Busquets
6. Pirlo
5. Rijkarrd
4. Roy Keane
3. Redondo
3. Didi
2. Matteus
1. Xavi
The revolutionized tactic is modern era bolstered a high capability of team performance in comparison to previous eras but the individual style of play is more limited. Many CMs you ranked in the top places such as Redondo, Xavi, Pirlo, Dunga etc were one of the team' key men to fulfill the team's tactical strategy but they're not all-round enough in other sub-functions and not creates the benefits to the team enough consequently.
DeleteBusquets in such a list is a bad joke.
DeleteI love most of the lists on here. but i can't take this list serious if Scholes isn't included. You say Scholes is an AM, but he did play CM in Man Utd's most successful season mid to late 2000s. Gerard, i believe played more AM roles than Scholes did. Scholes is technically better than both Gerard and Lampard.
ReplyDeleteThis topic has long been one of the most popular. Because of Scholes' high technique and playmaking ability combined with ability to play in advanced role that he performed impressively during his early career, he is thus categorized as AM.
DeleteScholes see as AM may not reach your top 50. Why not ... but it is sad to not see paul scholes in any of your top 50. Versatile players seem to be at a disadvantage in your rankings.
DeleteI reviewed several times but Scholes in UEFA Champion League is too limited and prevent him from being ranked in higher place.
DeleteJust read your section on Davids. You've made a typo and typed Seedorf in place of Davids.
ReplyDeleteOK, Thanks.
DeleteSeedorf is in class Rapid : C-. In my opinion he should be C+.
ReplyDeleteThat seems to be fine as I admit these rating is now in a beginning step and the rating will be reformed after the skill rating project.
DeleteSounds interesting. How many people are working on the skill rating project ? How will they proceed ?
DeleteFor this thing I am not totally convinced but vieira was more a box to box midfilder no ?
ReplyDeletefor me also vieira box to box/defensive holding.
DeleteAs it seems you don't reply on the 9x100 list :)
ReplyDeleteWhat do you think about Ancelotti(as player),
I was too young at the time of Ancelotti's prime but his rating by Guerin is not impressive enough.
DeleteIn my opinion Yaya Touré should be considered as a roaming playmaker. At his prime he was the heartbeat of city, driving forward with the ball to spearhead attacks as well as tracking back to cover defensively. He has physical attributes allowing him to maintain a high intensity but also the technical attributes to stamp his authority on the game.
ReplyDeleteAll this make me think he deserves to be considered as a playmaker and put higher in the 9x100 list.
I understand about his great playmaking skill but his defensive ability is great enough to be categorized in DM list.
DeleteI think, being a playmaker is more valuable than a defensive midfielder. Y.Touré may have been a little underrated, this is my opinion. I am not sure we can find so many players with the influence he had on the game during his prime.
DeleteAlways a pleasure :)
Cheers,
P.G.
His pure playmaking skill is also not competitive enough in playmaker list.
DeleteMaybe on the longterm, as he becomes a roaming playmaker in city, so a few years of his career. However especially for him, I think his rating doesn't show the player he was and how he was important for city. If we had a category complete midfielder he may have been higher than only 88 as defensive midfielder.
DeleteP. G.
One again, it seems versatile players are put at a disadvantage in rankings.
DeleteYaya 83 looks better but not enough especially when I see player like Essien 55. Essien was awesome for OL and had three great seasons at the begining for Chelsea, but then he was a lot injured and decline. Neither in Real Madrid or Milan ac he managed to came back. I don't see why there is a so big gap between both. Also Yaya behind Cambiasso,
DeleteYaya has a short prime and his peak is not highly favorable. He played football with much lower speed than Essien. Anyway, I found to underrate him in 2012. As a result of rating increase, I rank him up 3 places.
DeleteI agree for the short prime (3-4 years) as "roaming playmaker" in City but I don't understand what speed is for you, especially because you say "much lower". If you have 10 minutes to loose please have a look at : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTlzYkLnsi4
DeleteYes, this is a video, and on a video you can make nearly anybody looks good but for yaya we have the achievements too. I am not sure Yaya was playing with "much lower" speed then Essien. He also manages to play tiki-taka style in Barcelona as defensive-holding midfielder. These are average clubs but we could see playmaking attributes in Olympiakos (where I discovered him versus Olympique Lyonnais) or Monaco.
woooooooooow ! Didn't know Yaya was that impressive !
DeleteBut being a playmaking is mroe valuable than a defensive midfielder. Y.Touré may have been a little underrated, this my opinion.
ReplyDeleteCheers,
P.G.
Why is Cambiasso not even in top 50? Any particular reason?
ReplyDeleteHis overall seasonal performance rating established by Italian media is not good enough.
DeletePatrick Vieira would be more accurate than Patrice :)
ReplyDeleteMoreover in the description you are talking about Seedorf instead of Vieira and I would classify Vieira as box to box/central holding. Vieira was good during world cup 2006.
DeletePaul Scholes? ............ ummmm
ReplyDeleteyes it seems Naratorn was not good enough in champions league for Naratorn but this is very hard to not see Scholes in top 50 list :(
DeleteYes his score in champion league is uncompetitive. In global acceptance likes Ballon'Dor award, he never achieved top 10.
DeleteI'm not sure if Modric qualifies here or the AM section but he definitely has to be included high-up. He's the de facto best midfielder of his generation(since prime Xavi and Iniesta) and has been continuously praised as a footballing legend by players and pundits alike(Shevchenko said he's one of the greatest midfielders in football history in 2017)
ReplyDeleteToni Kroos as well. Best passer in the world for years, and 4 UCLs + World Champion as main midfield organizer.
ReplyDeleteInstead of ranking players for which I imagine we don't have nearly any materials except reputation. In this list I think about Smistik, Monti, Szepan ...
ReplyDeleteWouldn't it be better to mention them outside of the ranking and put players for which we have enough materials : Kroos, Guardiola, Haan, Lerby...
Quick question.
ReplyDeleteIf Jose Leandro Andrade were evaluated as a central midfielder, rather than as a defensive lateral, where would he fall in this list?
Thanks in advance. Always respect the football history.
Originally I rate him in central midfielder list, he was at 9th but he would be at 10th for my last update system. He is full of talent but he was tend down after lost an eye at his 26 years old.
DeleteCould we have the ability ranking of Y.Touré Prime ?
ReplyDeleteOn behalf of Naratorn : 81.8
DeleteDef 8.1, Stm 9.2, Pas 8.1, Crt 7.8, Agl 7.8, Drb 8, Spd 8.2, Str 8.9, Scr 8, Arl 7.8, Tec 8
Modric World Cup MVP. He should be at least top 10 if not even higher than Xavi considering that reaching a World Cup Final with Croatia>anything Xavi's done with Golden Spain.
ReplyDeleteNah..it's just recency bias creeping into your analysis..He should be after falcao in my opinion
DeleteWell that's 7th place so not that different of an opinion lol
DeleteThinking like this his champions league with Zidane's is not that good then ? Winning champions with real is easier no ?
DeleteModric has to be the number 17 and he has to be in the Queen Silver class now.
ReplyDeleteVladimir Jugovic not in the list of central or side midfielders?
ReplyDeleteNaratorn, don't you agree that Modric needs a big re-ranking?
ReplyDeleteI really forgot to update him to 17th as the scorecard was updated since the world cup had been ended.
DeleteCan you update the "The Highest Central Midfielder's Peaks of All-Time" list? I want to see your ranking of peaks between so different players like Ocwirk, Rijkaard, Bozsik and Masopust.
ReplyDeleteMasopust was a box to box midfielder or a deep-lying playmaker ? You say both. (Maybe a playmaking box to box :) )
ReplyDeleteI specify him as box-to-box midfielder. If he is categorized as playmaker, he will placed in another AM list.
DeleteCould rakitic enter the 9x100 list now ? He has become more and more important for Barcelona and a key player for croatia.
ReplyDeleteI checked his overall performance but not qualify for top 100 for now. At the end of this year will be assessed again.
DeleteLuka Modric winn THE BEST FIFA MAN PLAYER 2018 . 4 TIME LA LIGA BEST MILDFILDER
ReplyDeleteWhat about players like Schweinsteiger, Busquets, Kroos or Scholes? Really players like Prohaska, Giles, Voronin, Baxter or Smistik are better than the others? compares the trajectories, the titles and their impact on their teams.
ReplyDeletePersonally I think those 4 players should be in the top 50, because those midfielders have stood out and marked an era. Much more than the others did. PD: Sorry if my english is not good
I never acknowledge Busquets is among the top players in Europe. Scheweinsteiger is really inconsistent according to kicker rating. Kroos and scholes is more AM in categorization. They both are much better in overall offensive skills than defensive skills.
DeleteModric best Playmeker IFFHS. win BALON D OR 2018
ReplyDeleteModric Balon d or .... iffhs best player and Playmaker 2018 ..
ReplyDeleteYou include the likes of Xavi, Modric - yet don’t include Paul Scholes, Andres Iniesta. Andrea Pirlo. Scholes played in a 4-4-2 at Manchester United in the middle. You include Gerrard who played as an AM under Rafa. Your logic baffles me. Pirlo like Modric was deep lying.
ReplyDeleteI also didn’t see Claude Makelele. And put people like an injured inconsistent plagued Redondo in there - higher than the likes of Seedoft? A player who won the European Cup with three different clubs. Sergio Busquets technically miles better than most those DMs.
Well, let understand about the border of categorization line. Pirlo is at the bottom area of AM just near the border of CM. I said many times he even performed as AM in at least 4 seasons and his defensive is not qualified for CM position.
DeleteRedondo is injury in his late career but his peak is much better than other players in the same category. Makelele is competitively great in only defensive task. Seedorf's level of attribution to his club achievement in UCL is not very high. There were many other players in his club that is a key player to teh club's success.
You can see Makelele first in the destroying table of evaluation skills
DeleteWhat about Paul Pogba?
ReplyDeleteKante needs to be on this list after all his achievements, club, international and individual.
ReplyDeleteConsider him and evaluate! Merci!
Is Capello mistaken when he says redondo is better at defending than Rijkaard ?https://youtu.be/NHW91AP4h2o?t=78
ReplyDeleteInteresting video. What do you think Naratorn ?
DeleteYou say about Redondo "However, the limitation in tactical fulfillment that he is not suitable as a destroyer in a heavy game and also would not fit to box-to-box midfielder alongside destroyer."
DeleteI'm really have no idea why Capello said like this. Rijkaard is even a great central defender and a main destroyer.
DeleteThese categories don't really give a true representation. Pirlo and Makelele played in the same area of the pitch but have totally different styles and strengths. Players should be judged on their role in the team, not their position. Another example is Jose-Maria Bakero. I'm not saying he should be in this list by the way. He was an advanced midfielder, but his main job was to press the opposition and then with his knack of timing arrive late in goalscoring positions and score. In many ways he was similar, but slightly inferior to Bryan Robson, in playing style. Tough, hard working, good in the air, scored regularly, but Robson played a lot deeper. Yet they have more in common than Makelele and Pirlo(yes I know Pirlo also played AM but only till 24, and Makelele played a more advanced role for Celta by the way) who occupy the same area of the pitch. I'm not complaining about the site or you Naratorn. Your work is brilliant. I just think the way you rank players is a bit random. Compare like for like, then maybe compare the best of each to find the overall best
ReplyDeleteI don't include Pirlo on this list but he is named in AM list so why are you talking about his role should not be the same as Makelele ?
DeleteBecause Pirlo spent the majority of his career as the deepest midfielder he should be in the centre midfield list. This my point. Geographically on the pitch he played in the same zone as Makelele. But had a totally different set of skills. So maybe a truer reflection of ranking would be to split it down in to def mid, deep lying playmaker, box to box, and rank each sub section separately. You have split forward and striker yet there is less variation in their roles as primarily they both score and/or assist. But centre midfield has many different roles but you have grouped them all as one
DeleteThey both play in the same zone but the role is really different. Makelele is the destroyer of the team while Pirlo cannot be the destroyer. Also, Pirlo played as offensive midfielder in some years as well.
DeleteWhy is Xavi so high? I appreciate his off the ball movement and close control and short passing we're brilliant, but he was in a team full of players taught to give and go and find space. It does make the job easier. When you take in to account his weaknesses in tackling, heading, scoring, pace. Doesn't that insult some of the players below him in the list? I would argue Didi is the same, but as I've only seen very limited footage, I may have not seen his best days. Great work by the way
ReplyDeleteWell, you're a few of people has a thought to Xavi's limitation. I have a tendency to agree but the fact that his vision through tactical understanding, anticipation and sense of creativity combined with his ball control is very influential to his team's achievement.
DeleteIn conclusion, you can see his skill ranking is not as high as his performance ranking.
Fair point. I didn't want to get bogged down in statistics and I find all the grading points a bit overwhelming. I just say what I see. Thanks
DeleteI saw your comments above that you consider Scholes as an AM, but if so, then shouldn’t Lampard be an AM as well? I thought that Lampard had a more advanced role so he scored a lot of goals.
ReplyDeleteAnd I think that Busquets deserves a mention. He was very important in all Barca successes and also won two major trophies with Spain. He is brilliant at reading the game and anticipating.
i think the terminology is the problem. Attacking midfielder, defensive midfielder. both can play in exactly the same space and be defined by style/skill set. or it can describe an area of the pitch. you are mixing them both which could be causing the confusion. maybe a more useful categorisation would be
ReplyDeletedeep-lying midfielder
box-to-box midfielder
advanced midfielder
and then rate them on what they bring to the team rather that what fits the traditional stereotype historically for that position
And the greatest deep-lying playmaker of all time is not on this list : Pirlo
ReplyDeleteWho is the greatest left-halfback of the pre-WW2 era? I see you haven't included any in your ranking so I was curious.
ReplyDeleteJose Leandro Andrade. Which list I haven't include ?
DeleteOK I actually include him in defender list.
DeleteWhat was the playing style of clodoaldo ?
ReplyDeleteI mean defensive holding ? Box to box ?
DeleteI think he is more defensive holding midfielder.
Deletehi I thought that list was really good. Well done
ReplyDeleteWhat makes Baresi a greater player than Scirea ? More champions league and a great performance in WC 1994 ? Does this compensate baresi didn't really play world cup 1982 ?
ReplyDeleteIsn't Bryan RObson a little high ? Especially when I see him above Lampard. What makes the difference ?
ReplyDeleteRobson is believed to achieve more world-class seasons than Lampard and he has more contributed to England than Lampard as well. I think it is fair as Robson is better in defense, greater orientation and movement. He played with lower quality teammates but still make outstanding contribution.
DeleteWhat about Gerrard then ?
DeleteIs Gerrard national career enough to be so high in the ranking ?
ReplyDeleteGood note, what do you think ?
DeleteAny remark about it ?
DeleteNot so high but his domestic career are very competitive and enough to lead in obtaining high total score.
DeleteGreat list but I where the fuck is Andrea Pirlo?
ReplyDeleteHe is in the offensive midfielders'list. He is classified as a playmaker in the positional ranking list and as a offensive midfielder in the main hall of fame due to him being a mostly attacking player despite his position as a deep-lying midfielder
ReplyDeleteI was wondering why Bastian Schweinsteiger is missing from the list. Surely he deserves to be ranked above Lampard or Gerrard.
ReplyDeleteAbsolutely not, Schweinsteiger was arguably world class only in 2009-2014 and i do not think he ever reached Gerrard or Lampard's level. He is ranked in place 58 in the minor hall of fame. Schweinsteiger was also overshadowed by the likes of Neuer, T Muller, Kroos and Lahm in Germany's world cup win.
DeleteHow on earth are Paul schools, Zidane and pirlo not in this list and not even in the top ten along with Steven Gerard?
ReplyDeleteZidane, Pirlo and Scholes are in the Main Hall of fame as offensive midfielders. Scholes is in the substitution list.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAfter another consitent year especially in UCL could Modric progress in the ranking especially ahead of Gerrard ?
ReplyDeleteHe is now 8th
DeleteIniesta?
ReplyDeleteIn the offensive midfielders list
DeleteGood list.
ReplyDeleteThis is a remark I have just done for central-defender but I would put as honourable mentions legends for which we are close to have no footage.
Ocwirk, Monti, Hanappi, Szepan, Varela, Kada, Alvim, Smistik, Cajkovski
Thus you could add in the list : Kante, Stielike, the asked Scholes .. and a few players where we have footage, thus people happier without forgetting anyone.
What a good idea !
DeleteVery good work! Imo Vieira PATRICK is more a box-to-box midfielder than a defensive-holding if I understand your definition.
ReplyDeleteWHERE IS ZIDANE????
ReplyDeleteZidane is a playmaker not a box to box player. He s in the Offensive Miedfielders list (ranked 4th)
Delete